In fact to add to this conversation... Lean does not even focus on outcomes or results but on learning. And applying people to learning. The rest is incidental to that. And when Toyota started in the post war days, that learning was their key to their survival (with pretty much nothing to survive on)
While Agile principles are clear as it was supported and articulated by the Agile Manifesto... I find the Lean Principles to be dubious and made up (to conveniently fit some narrative). Can I get some sources to where these principles were derived from and what the thinking principles are behind whatever is called "Lean" here...
A set of Lean Principles could be derived from Toyota, the origin what we call "Lean" comes from...
Good questions and good point. While the Lean that I describe here is ultimately derived from the the Toyota way of thinking, it is more closely related to the Lean Startup principles, described by Eric Ries and further interpreted by Marty Cagan.
But neither of them are Lean Principles... one is Lean Startup Principles - Lean Startup being a method. And the other is Marty's Principles... one element of Product Management if you look at it from Marty's lens. Both narrow lenses.
The 14 Lean Principles derived from Toyota which would be useful to be Lean would be:
long-term, flow, pull, less variability & overburden, Stop & Fix, master norms, simple visual mgmt, good tech, leader-teachers from within, develop exceptional people, help partners be lean, Go See, consensus, reflection & kaizen
I am not suggesting that these Lean principles that you refer are not useful, they very well might be... it is a small part of the philosophy used to build a large system.
In fact to add to this conversation... Lean does not even focus on outcomes or results but on learning. And applying people to learning. The rest is incidental to that. And when Toyota started in the post war days, that learning was their key to their survival (with pretty much nothing to survive on)
While Agile principles are clear as it was supported and articulated by the Agile Manifesto... I find the Lean Principles to be dubious and made up (to conveniently fit some narrative). Can I get some sources to where these principles were derived from and what the thinking principles are behind whatever is called "Lean" here...
A set of Lean Principles could be derived from Toyota, the origin what we call "Lean" comes from...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toyota_Way
Good questions and good point. While the Lean that I describe here is ultimately derived from the the Toyota way of thinking, it is more closely related to the Lean Startup principles, described by Eric Ries and further interpreted by Marty Cagan.
See https://theleanstartup.com/principles for the principles directly from Eric Ries and https://www.svpg.com/beyond-lean-and-agile/ for the interpretation by Marty Cagan.
Thanks @Kevin for your response.
But neither of them are Lean Principles... one is Lean Startup Principles - Lean Startup being a method. And the other is Marty's Principles... one element of Product Management if you look at it from Marty's lens. Both narrow lenses.
The 14 Lean Principles derived from Toyota which would be useful to be Lean would be:
long-term, flow, pull, less variability & overburden, Stop & Fix, master norms, simple visual mgmt, good tech, leader-teachers from within, develop exceptional people, help partners be lean, Go See, consensus, reflection & kaizen
https://less.works/less/principles/lean-thinking
(also in the Wikipedia page on Toyota)
I am not suggesting that these Lean principles that you refer are not useful, they very well might be... it is a small part of the philosophy used to build a large system.
Thanks for engaging, much appreciated.